pmjs logs for July 2001. Total number of messages: 32

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emaki (Barbara Nostrand) 

--> Shushokuron --> bibliographical searches 

new members: Paul Murphy, Suzanne Gay 

"Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan (Gregory Levine) archived 

new member: Clare Pollard, The Chester Beatty Library, Dublin 

shishimai music (Barbara Nostrand) 

translating J -> E (Morgan Pitelka) --> Genji word-count 

TITUS Unicode Basic font for the Mac (Nobumi Iyanaga) 

Lightly edited (see "principles"). Editorial comments in italics.

Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:11:39 -0400
From: Barbara Nostrand <>
Subject: Emaki

Hello Again.

Does anyone know where I can find a published copy of the emaki
Shushokuron or any pre-modern emaki dealing with food? I'm not
sure that inter-library loan will be happy retrieving all 30
some volumes of NIHON EMAKI TAISEI. Wayne Farris suggested that
Shushokuron might be in it somewhere. He also says that this
series is out in paperback. Does anyone have the ISBN for
them? I can only find the rather expensive hardback editions
on amazon. Finally, does anyone know of a directory of
published Emaki? Worldcat doesn't always have tables of
contents for entries.

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 14:58:49 -0600
From: Karen Brock <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: Emaki

RE: Shushokuron

Unfortunately this emaki is NOT in any of the standard sets of picture
scrolls: Nihon emaki taisei, Zoku NET, or Zokuzoku NET; or the earlier
Kadokawa set or the paperback version of NET called Nihon no emaki. I
have never found good illustrations of it, only a detail here and there,
and I've never even come across any articles on it. The only recourse
may be to contact the owner of the scroll to see if you can acquire
"research photographs."

There are various food preparation or banquet scenes in a number of
picture scrolls, but I don't know about any devoted to food.

There are a few reference works on emaki that would give you the basic
information on extant scrolls, but I am unaware of any kind of index to

Karen L. Brock

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:39:38 -0400
From: Lawrence Marceau <lmarc...@...l.Edu>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: Shushokuron

If this is the same emaki/otogi zoshi that also goes by the titles
"Shuhanron" (kanji), "Sankoron" (*), "Sanron ekotoba" (*),
"Geko jo^go ekotoba" (*), "Jo^go geko no maki" (*),
with text by Ichijo^ Kanera and illustrations by Tosa Mitsunobu, dating from
about Tenbun 19 (1550), then you might find both text and illustrations in
Waseda Daigaku Kyoiku Gakubu Gakujutsu Kenkyu (*),
number 35 (1986), under the title "Shuhanron emaki." I haven't checked, so
I'm not sure. It might have text only...

Perhaps someone with ready access to this journal can help out.

Lawrence Marceau

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 18:14:11 -0400
From: Lawrence Marceau <lmarc...@...l.Edu>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: Shushokuron

After I sent the last message, I did a quick Google search, and found three articles (one in English) by Namiki Seishi of Kyoto Kogei Sen'i Daigaku. I'm sure they're illustrated.


Also, the text found in Muromachi jidai monogatari taisei, vol. 7 (1983) may or may not be illustrated (I doubt it, though).

Good luck.

Lawrence Marceau

Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:27:50 +0900
From: Michael Watson <>
Subject: [pmjs] bibliographical searches (WAS: Shushokuron)

How does one best search online for the contents of series like the Nihon
emaki taisei--or the larger ...taikei, ..shusei series in literature?

For searches of this kind I find Waseda library more helpful than Webcat.
Search for title "Nihon emaki taisei" (J) and Waseda's WINE produces a
well-ordered list from vol. 1 onwards. Then it's a matter of clicking
through. Any other suggestions?

A related matter is how to search for contents of books: articles in
ronbunshu and even chapters of a single-authored work. Recently I've begun to use Tokyo University's service (J/E). Perhaps of limited use for older works, but can be very handy for recent studies. Yesterday I was looking for studies on the reception of Kanseki in _Heike_ and it located the very one that had slipped my mind.

URL mentioned (English pages in every case)

Michael Watson

P.S. Re: Shushokuron/Shuhanron

Karen Brock suggests
> The only recourse may be to contact the owner of the scroll to see if you can
> acquire
> "research photographs."
To do this, it might also be helpful to contact institutions which have
recently exhibited the scroll (if indeed we are talking about the same one).
Google again came up with two--Kyoto University library and Okura Shukokan.
Details offlist to Barbara Nostrand.

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:09:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hideyuki Morimoto <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: bibliographical searches (WAS: Shushokuron)

Each volume title within a multi-part set (such as ... taikei, ... shusei,
... bungaku senshu/zenshu, etc.) of Japanese literary works may be listed
in the contents note of the bibliographic record for the set and/or
entered as an analytic record for the volume title.

In WorldCat, if the volume title is known for searching, one or more of
the following commands may be specified:

cho ol;fin nt [title word] and nt [title word] ...

cho ol;fin ti [title word] and ti [title word] ...

cho ol;fin au [author word] and au [author word] and ti [title word]
and ti [title word] ...

cho ol;sca ti [title phrase]

cho ol;fin dt [initial 3 letters of the first title word],[initial
2 letters of the second title word],[initial 2 letters of
the third title word],[initial 1 letter of the fourth title

cho ol;fin da [initial 4 letters of the first author word],[initial
4 letters of the first title word]

Still in WorldCat, if the multi-part set title is known for search, then,
one or more of the following commands may be issued:

cho ol;fin dt [initial 3 letters of the first set title word],
[initial 2 letters of the second set title word],[initial 2
letters of the third set title word],[initial 1 letter of the
fourth set title word]

<This retrieves records both for the set and analytics.>

cho ol;fin se [set title word] and se [set title word] ...

<This only retrieves records for analytics and not for the

For instance, for "Nihon emaki taisei,"

cho ol;fin dt nih,em,ta,^

<"^" is used where there is no letter to specify in the title
in order to reduce the size of "false drops.">

yields 55 matches with a summary display arranged alphabetically by
analytic title, with the title for the set (which does not have an
analytic title) placed at the beginning. Then,

cho ol;fin dt zok,ni,em,t

yields 39 matches.

In Eureka, the search options are by title phrase (fin ti ...) or by title
word (fin tiw ...); and the browse option is (bro ti ...).

fin ti nihon emaki taisei

retrieves 15 bibliographic records; and

fin tiw nihon emaki taisei

in turn, retrieves 94 bibliographic records.

In the Library of Congress OPAC, if the volume title is known for
searching, one or more of the following commands may be specified:

K505 "..."

KCON "..."

245A "..."

K245 "..."

TKEY "..."

Still in the Library of Congress OPAC, if the multi-part set title is
known for search, then, one or more of the following commands may be

245A "..."

K245 "..."

TKEY "..."

KSER "..."

K440 "..."

K490 "..."

For instance, for "Nihon emaki taisei,"

TKEY "nihon emaki taisei"

retrieves 38 bibliographic records.

Each article within a collected work or each chapter within a title is
rarely, if at all, entered in bibliographic records residing in WorldCat
or RLIN for Japanese imprints. When such data appear in bibliographic
records, the search technique remain the same as for multi-part sets and
volume titles. Such analytic title may be found in contents notes
within records for the host item, or, in rare instances, so-called "in
analytic" records are made. Evidently, the Book Contents database of the
University of Tokyo has heavily been utilized for searching components
within each title through data appearing in TOC's and abstracts.

Hideyuki Morimoto

Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:03:27 -0400
From: Barbara Nostrand <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: bibliographical searches (WAS: Shushokuron)

Dear Mr. Morimoto

Thank you for your instructions on how to better use Worldcat.
I first had access to it less than a year ago and have not yet
used the expert search features.

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2001 0:25 AM
From: Michael Watson <>
Subject: new members

We welcome three new members.

Paul Murphy <>

I am a journalist for the English-language Asahi Shimbun in Tokyo with a
strong interest in Japanese religion and politics.

Suzanne Gay <>

Director, East Asian Studies Program
Associate Professor, East Asian Studies, Oberlin College
Area of research: late medieval (1350-1550) urban history.
Monograph: The Moneylenders of Late Medieval Kyoto (University of Hawaii
Press, September, 2001)

James C. Baxter <>

Professor, International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto.
My research is on nineteenth- and twentieth-century history. I am interested
in premodern studies because I occasionally teach about pre-Meiji matters
and also because one of my duties at Nichibunken is to follow trends in
current research in Japanese studies generally. Earlier I wrote about the
process of national integration in modern Japan (_The Meiji Unification
through the Lens of Ishikawa Prefecture_, Harvard University Council on East
Asian Studies, 1994). Recently I have been investigating the role of
private-sector banks in allocating resources in modern Japan. From a senior
colleague who retired, I inherited leadership of a three-year (2000-2002)
team research project, "Historiography and Japanese Consciousness of
Values and Norms," and I have been looking at Meiji-period textbooks for
Japanese history in connection with that. In April 2001, I became editor of
Nichibunken's annual English-language journal _Japan Review_.


Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:47:52 -0700
From: Gregory Levine <>
Subject: "Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan

Dear Colleagues,

I am currently doing research on the breaking and abuse of visual images in
premodern Japan, especially religious images, and would be grateful for any
references, especially in primary sources, to incidents of or
doctrinal/philosophical postures concerning "iconoclasm" in Japan. I would
also welcome references that point us toward an indigenous lexicon for
"iconoclasm" in Japan and in other visual cultures in Asia.

Most of us are no doubt familiar with the Nihon shoki entry for 552
(referring to the Buddhist icon thrown into the Naniwa canal and its temple
being torched). Also familiar [thanks to the work of James Ketelaar, Martin
Collcutt, Christine Guth, and others] is the landscape of dismantled and
ruined temples and destroyed or dispersed icons and texts emerging during
the persecution of Buddhism in late Edo-early Meiji.

I'm sure there are other important moments in which sacred sites and their
images were disrupted or destroyed as well as particular
sectarian/philosophical positions. (We might differentiate the destruction
of sanctuaries as collateral damage during civil war-- as in Oda Nobunaga's
assault on Enryakuji-- from direct disputes over the presence of images and
representation of the divine.)

Greg Levine

Assistant Professor of Japanese art history
Department of History of Art
U.C. Berkeley
416 Doe Library #6020
Berkeley, CA 94720-6020
Tel: (510) 643-4029
Fax: (510) 643-2185

This thread has been archived. The archive version is tidier...

Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:27:29 -0400
From: Matthew Stavros <mstav...@...nceton.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan

Greetings Greg senpai,

Just the other day I read the Jurgin Elisonas article in Cambridge History,
vol. 4, chap. 7, "Christianity and the Daimyo." It gives highlights several
cases when "native" Japanese religious imagery and architecture was
destroyed (primarily in Kyushu) by late sengoku daimyo at the behest of
their Christian mentors. You might want to check it out for references to
primary sources.

I send my best,
Matthew Stavros

Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:57:11 -0400
From: David Pollack <>
Subject: Re: "Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan


I wonder if, in literature and certain forms of art, mitate might not
amount to a type of iconoclasm? This would understand the practice of
honkadori or other respectful allusion as a sort of elevation of the icon,
and mitate as its deliberate 'breaking.' True, we usually don't think of
iconoclasm as eliciting humor, but it does, and humor isn't the sole
function of mitate, which can also be done for more serious purposes of
disguise, satire, and for various sly and/or malevolent intentions. As it
develops in the Edo period, at any rate, it seems to me that mitate becomes
a very complex and inclusive mechanism that does at least part of what we
think of when we use the word iconoclasm. Not the religious part, perhaps or
alas, but a send-up, parody, nose-thumbing, akanbei sort of attitude toward
established pieties. Find a piety or convention and you'll find its mitate.
You might have some trouble locating this attitude in the sort of arts you
had in mind though.

David Pollack

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:37:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Carol Tsang <>
Subject: Re: "Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan

There are numerous examples of temples being sacked in the history of the
Honganji branch of Jodo Shinshu.

The destruction of the first Honganji, in 1465, by Enryakuji. See the
works Honpukuji Yuraiki (pp. 329-32) and Honpukuji atogaki (pp. 364-6).
Page numbers refer to the publication called Honpukuji kyuki, ed. Chiba
Joryu, although there are other printed versions, e.g. in Shinshu Shiryo

Another example is the attack on Kofukuji by Honganji adherents, on
1532/7/17. Courtiers' diaries referring to this include: Nijoji shuka-ki,
Ganjo onenki, Nisui-ki and Hisamichi ko-ki. For Nijoji shuka=ki,for
example, look at entries from that date--7/17--to at least 8/9. As far as
I know, though, it's only available in Zoku nangyo zatsuroku, which I
found at Todai shiryohensanjo. Maybe somebody else knows of a printed

And, of course, there's the razing of the Yamashina Honganji in 1532 by
Nichiren adherents and Rokkaku Sadayori, though these belong rather more
to the civil-war collateral-damage category, even if the Nichiren people
used religious beliefs to justify the attack. Come to think of it, there's
the virtual destruction (temporarily) of the Nichiren sect in Kyoto later
in the 1530s by Enryakuji and Rokkaku Sadayori (at least I think it's that
Rokkaku). I don't have primary references to that close at hand, but you
should look through Imatani Akira's Tembun Hokke no Ran (Heibonsha,

"Ikkoshu" (generally taken to mean Honganji-branch) were also infamous in
the late fifteenth century for their alleged destruction of Buddhist
images and idols. A good starting place to look for that, and a good
discussion of why I say "generally taken to mean" in James Dobbins's
Jodo Shinshu (Indiana UP, 1989).

One or more of these incidents may be of interest to you.

Carol Tsang

Assistant Professor
Department of History
University of Illinois at Chicago

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:29:35 +0900 (JST)

From: (Niels GUELBERG)

Subject: Re: Shushokuron



Hello, everybody!

I checked the paper on _Shushokuron_ in the Waseda journal.
The title is:
"(Shiryou shoukai) Beppon 'Shuhanron emaki'"
by Nakano Kou'ichi (saiwai+1),
in: (Waseda daigaku kyouiku gakubu) Gakujutsu kenkyuu.
- Kokugo.Kokubungaku hen -, No. 35
1986, pp. 15-22.
Please note that there are three or four sections (hen) of the
same journal.
The paper gives only a "honkoku" of the text with one photograph
of the kana-part.

In his introduction Nakano states that there is a manuscript
titled "Sanron ekotoba" in the Waseda library, a mosha-copy
of the original. You may get a microfilm copy from the library
by asking for it.

Sincerely yours,


Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:08:37 -0400
From: "robin gill" <>
Subject: iconoclasm

In respect to Greg Levine's call for examples of iconoclasm:

Extremely sad yet entertaining reading on the destruction of religious
sculpture by the jesuits and their converts may be found in frois's
NIHONSHI, the ten or so volumes of which, if i remember right, may be found
at the university of washington, which was kind enough to let me borrow it
very cheaply once by interlibrary loan, (and may be at OSU, too) --- i mean
there are spectacular expeditions to steal them from caves and exultation
over heads flying into privies, etc.

The best symbol of the playful iconoclasm suggested by David Pollack that
comes to mind would be micturation on the shinto mark (torii), which every
modern cartoonist worth his salt has depicted. I have an old senryu about
doing the same somewhere around here and will send it when/if it is found.

robin d gill

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:04:06 -0400

From: Lawrence Marceau <lmarc...@...l.Edu>

Subject: Re: "Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan

I'm not sure whether this is what Gregory Levine is looking for, but
"doctrinal/philosophical postures concerning iconoclasm" might include
just about any of the positions made by non-Hayashi-School Confucian and
nativist scholars during the early modern period.

One well-known article with the term "iconoclast" in the title is
Shuichi Kato's "Tominaga Nakamoto, 1715-46: A Tokugawa Iconoclast." (MN
22). This includes an English translation of Tominaga's "Okina no fumi".

E. Herbert Norman (1949) and Yasunaga Toshinobu (1992) have
demonstrated that Ando^ Sho^eki held strongly critical beliefs concerning
the role of the state.

James McMullen, in his _Idealism, Protest, and The Tale of Genji_
(1999), focuses on the protest aspects of Kumazawa Banzan's Confucian

From the Christian perspective, _Deus Destroyed_ (1973) is a good
source for anti-Buddhist diatribes.

Beatrice Bodart-Bailey published "The Persecution of Confucianism in
Tokugawa Japan" in MN 48.3 (1993).

The 18th-century writer Baba Bunko^ (kanji, d. 1718-58) was one of
the few writers put to death for his writings critical of the regime.

Finally, while all gesaku could be construed as being iconoclastic,
the yomihon fiction of Ueda Akinari has a strong anti-establishment
flavor to it, whether it is the military regime, the Nara and early Heian
court, or organized religion.

The list goes on to peasant protest, uchikowashi, etc., but I'll stop

Lawrence Marceau

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:18:37 -0700
From: Todd Brown <>
Subject: Re: "Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan


You're probably already aware of this, but _Shasekishuu_ (1:10) contains an
interesting reference to nenbutsu practitioners who express their exclusive
devotion to Amida by rubbing _tade_ ("smartweed" in Robert Morrell's
translation) on the heads of images of Jizou. The reference is brief and
the precise significance of this act is not made clear, but it is said to
reflect the belief (not shared by Mujuu Ichien, of course) that Buddhist
deities other than Amida are "useless" (_itazuramono_). The fact that the
same passage also discusses related practices, such as throwing copies of
the _Lotus Sutra_ into rivers, may make it useful in situating iconoclasm
per se with respect to other expressions of impiety. (On the other hand, I
suppose one might argue that in the medieval Japanese context, Buddhist
scriptures -- or at least, some scriptures, such as the _Lotus_ -- had
enough in common with religious icons to require that any definition of
"iconoclasm" be sufficiently broad to include their desecration or

A rather different but perhaps relevant phenomenon is the conversion of
statues of other Buddhas into statues of Amida by removing their hands or
fingers and replacing them with new ones positioned in _mudra_ associated
with Amida. Though as a rule this was probably not intended as
"iconoclastic" by those who did it, it certainly struck at least one
observer as blasphemous -- in his _Risshou ankoku ron_, Nichiren excoriates
those guilty of this and other heretical practices inspired by Honen's
teachings for "destroying" the Buddha, the Dharma, and the priesthood.
(_Risshou ankoku ron_, T. no. 2688, 84:207b9-14; this passage is translated
in p. 35-36 of Philip Yampolsky's _Selected Writings of Nichiren_).
Nichiren's comments may also be of use in your search for an indigenous
lexicon for "iconoclasm" and for information on how iconoclasm was
perceived. The work is a polemic and the passage in question contains a
certain amount of hyperbole (the practices corresponding to "the
destruction of the Dharma" and "the destruction of the priesthood" are
copying the Pure Land sutras instead of the _Lotus_ and substituting
lectures on Shan-tao's writings for lectures on Chih-i's). Nonetheless,
Nichiren's identification of the image with the deity depicted (he writes
not of those who modify statues, but of those who "cut off Shaka's hands
and fingers") was certainly not unique, and I suspect that he would not
have been alone in equating the desecration of a statue of Sakyamuni with
the "destruction of the Buddha" (_habutsu_) himself.

I hope these references will be of at least some use to you (and won't
reach you only after a dozen or so other PMJS subscribers supply the same
information). This is a fascinating topic, and I look forward to the
results of your research.

Todd Brown

Subject: "Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:48:38 -0600
From: wordfield <>

Dear Greg,

As I read your message and the responses so far, I
immediately thought of the haikai kigo,
_efumi_/_ebumi_/_fumi-e_ (picture-trampling),
which apparently features in some Tokugawa-era
"haiku" and renku, and later haiku. To quote some
material from R. H. Blyth on the matter:


_efumi shite_
_nenbutsu mo^su_
_omina kana_

An old woman
Trampling on the picture of Christ,
Repeating the Nembutsu.


This concerns the practice of treading on a
picture of Christ to show that one was not a
Christian. This law was enacted by the Government
in the year 1716 to make certain of the extinction
of Christianity. From the 16th of the First Month
to the Third Month (Lunar Calendar) this rite was
performed at Nagasaki, O^mura, and other places.
The poem has brought out the tragedy of it
all by making the person concerned a woman, and be
reminding us, through the word Nembutsu, of the
fact that the teaching of Christ and that of
Buddha are in no way opposed, at least as far as
the inculcation of gentleness, meekness and
selflessness is concerned.

(Haiku, vol. 2, Spring, p. 143. Note that the
paperback set is paginated through all four
volumes; the passage is at the end of the section
on "The Nirvana Picture".)

[Blyth's Shu^chiku seems to have died in 1739,
according to Haibungaku daijiten.]


I seem to recall seeing the topic used in a
Basho^-school haikai no renga, but cannot recall

Apparently the practice struck a chord, as the
best modern saijiki I know of, the color
illustrated _Nihon Dai Saijiki_ (1982-4) lists a
dozen or so poems on this topic (it's in Spring,
Gyo^ji), by such stalwarts as Masaoka Shiki,
Takahama Kyoshi, Mizuhara Shu^o^shi, Yamaguchi
Seison, Nakamura Teijo, etc. A couple of the poets
whose poems are included may still be living. The
saijiki, by the way, says the practice started in
1628, and gives two related images, one of a
painting illustrating the ritual, and another of
an image of Christ's descent from the cross,
apparently used in the ritual. The saijiki
indicates that the practice is gone, but poets
still write on the subject occasionally.

As the Taliban teach us, Iconoclasm cuts many


William J. Higginson
P. O. Box 2740
Santa Fe, NM 87504 USA
1-505-438-3249 tel & fax
Personal Web Pages:
Open Directory Project Editor:

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:46:06 -0500
From: Keller Kimbrough <>
Subject:"Iconoclasm" in Premodern Japan

Hello Everyone,

Todd Brown's description of the "conversion" (mutilation) of Buddhist
images to "make them Amida" reminded me of a point that Ikegami Jun'ichi
makes in his kaisetsu to the setsuwa anthology _Sangoku denki_ ("Chusei no
bungaku" series, Miyai Shoten, 1982, vol. 2, p. 3-8). Manuscripts in the
woodblock-printed _Sangoku denki_ textual line contain strong Pure Land
elements that the National Library text does not. Ikegami argues that
these discrepancies--including, for example, substitutions of Amida for
Shakyamuni, the Three Pure Land Sutras for the Lotus Sutra, and chanting of
the nenbutsu for copying out the Lotus Sutra--are the result of a pro-Pure
Land copyist's attempt to subvert the original, largely Tendai-Lotus tone
of the anthology. Like the physical alteration of statues, this kind of
textual disfigurement may or may not constitute iconoclasm, depending on
how broadly one defines the term.

Keller Kimbrough

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 23:21:38 +0900
From: Michael Watson <>
Subject: [pmjs] new member

We welcome to a new member:

Clare Pollard <>
Curator of the East Asian Collections, The Chester Beatty Library, Dublin

My doctoral research was on Makuzu Kozan and Meiji ceramics, but I am now
particularly interested in Edo period emaki and ehon and illustrated printed

Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:44:54 -0400
From: Barbara Nostrand <>
Subject: [pmjs] shishimai music

Hello again.

Does anyone know of a recording of the music used for shishimai
especially the music for the famous Tono area deer dance? I
suppose that this question only barely qualifies for the mailing.
However, Averbuch does insist that these dances are likely to be
premodern. Thank you very much.

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:55:20 +0100
From: Morgan Pitelka <>
Subject: [pmjs] translating J -> E

Dear PMJS,

I'm wondering if anyone can provide a general idea of the ratio between
Japanese characters and English words when translating prose. I've gone back
and looked at some of the translations I've done of history essays, and it
seems that it roughly ranges between 2 and 2.5. In other words, to get
10,000 English words you need to translate about 20,000 or 25,000 Japanese
characters. Does that sound right? I'm wondering in terms of translating
from Japanese to English, but I'm curious if the same ratio works in the
opposite direction.



Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:24:01 -0400
From: David Pollack <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: translating J -> E

I would think it depended on what's being translated and how you are
defining 'character' and 'word' -- Only kanji? Every separate mark on
the page? Something else? One essay in Japanese history I recently
translated had about 8,200 ji (separate marks), counting about 35 per
line times 18 lines per page times 13 pages. In English translation,
this came out to about 4,200 'words' (or 21,800 'characters'), using the
definitions of the software's 'word-count.' By the rather odd standard
of comparing every 'ji' in Japanese to every 'word' in English, the
ratio comes out to about 2 Japanese ji to 1 English word. But if you
count everything (roughly) except punctuation and spaces, the ratio
becomes closer to 2.5 English thingies to 1 Japanese thingy. I couldn't
begin to try to figure out how to break the Japanese text down into 'words.'

I wonder how Royall's Genji word-count comes out?

David Pollack

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:21:41 -0500
From: "Lewis Cook" <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: translating J -> E

The ratio varies of course but for modern (word-processed) text of
contemporary non-literary Japanese prose it almost always falls within
the range you suggest, one word of English for 2 to 2.5 Japanese
characters (kanji / kana), tending towards the lower end of that
range. Much discussion of this question is archived on the Honyaku
(Yahoo groups) list but the gist is that many professional
(=commercial) J>E translators use a 2.0 or 2.2 ratio for estimating
costs. I can't, offhand, think of any reasons why this ratio wouldn't
work in the other direction. (If you can, please let us know.)

Lewis Cook

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:28:14 +1000
From: Royall Tyler <>
To: Multiple recipients of pmjs <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: translating J -> E

>I wonder how Royall's Genji word-count comes out?

Saa. I'd have to do a word count for every chapter and then add them all up
(distinguishing text from footnotes). I'm afraid I may not get around to


Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:34:07 +0900
From: Michael Watson <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: translating J -> E

>I wonder how Royall's Genji word-count comes out?

>Saa. I'd have to do a word count for every chapter and then add them all up
> (distinguishing text from footnotes). I'm afraid I may not get around to
> it....

I checked the comparable numbers for the "Kiritsubo" chapter the other day.

Genji text 12155 characters total (Shogakukan edition in Oxford Text Archive
version, minus "markup")

Royall Tyler and E.G.Seidensticker translations both come out to circa 6500
words (excluding footnotes). Arthur Waley uses some 700 more.

Interestingly, Yosano Akiko translation for "Kiritsubo" is just 8913
characters (kanji to kana ratio is much higher)
(based on Kadokawa bunko Zenyaku GM of 1971 --> Shinshin-yaku GM of 1938)

Michael Watson

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:28:50 +0900
From: Nobumi Iyanaga <>
Subject: [pmjs] TITUS Unicode Basic font for the Mac

Hello All

This is for Mac users using OS 9 or higher and looking for a good Unicode
font with as many diacritical characters as possible:

Thanks to the efforts of the people at the TITUS site, you/one can now
download EXE or ZIP versions of "TITUS Unicode Basic" alternatively!

Before, TITUS Unicode Basic was distributed only as EXE file, i.e.
compressed on Windows, and you had to have a Windows machine to be able to
expand it. Now, it is distributed as a ZIP file also, so that it can be
expanded in the Mac. Download the ZIP file. You can use StuffitExpander
(with Drop Stuff) to expand it. If the file appears as a TEXT file (has the
icon of SimpleText), use some utility to change the creator to 'movr' and
the type to 'sfnt': now the icon will change to that of a TrueType font.
Then, drop the file onto the icon of the System Folder (D'ONT open the Fonts
Folder and put the file there manually): a dialog will ask you if you want
to put the file in the Fonts Folder; click OK -- and now, you will be able
to use the font in Unicode savvy editors, like SUE and WorldText.

I think you can use the same font in the OS X as well, using the same
technique: dropping the font file onto the icon of the System Folder of OS

By the way, any Windows Unicode font can be used (without any conversion) in
Mac OS 9.0.4 and higher (you need perhaps to change the creator and the type
of the file). Some examples (I quote

Bitstream Cyberbit:
A free universal Unicode TrueType serif font (called "Cyberbit") available
from Bitstream, via Netscape. This is a Windows TrueType font, compatible
with OS 9.0.4 and above, but you need a Unicode-savvy application to use it.
The download is a Windows-compressed self-extracting [.exe] archive, so you
need a Windows system to decompress it. See

Microsoft Arial Unicode:
A universal Unicode 2.1 TrueType sans-serif font, available free from
Microsoft. This is a Windows TrueType font, compatible with OS 9.0.4 and
above, but you need a Unicode-savvy application to use it. The download is a
Windows-compressed self-extracting [.exe] archive, so you need a Windows
system to decompress it. See:

You will find more useful info at:

I hope this is of interest to some members of this list.

Best regards,

Nobumi Iyanaga

P.S. I will cross-post this message to some other mailing lists. I
apologize in advance if you receive it more than once.

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:19:51 -0400
From: Barbara Nostrand <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: TITUS Unicode Basic font for the Mac: addendum


I downloaded TITUS and put it in the fonts directory, but ATM
objects to it. Is there some sort of voodoo required to make
it work? Is taking off the file extention enough? Does it only
work under OS X or does it work under OS 9.1? There didn't
appear to be a lot of instructions with the font.

Best Wishes
Barbara Nostrand

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:23:22 +0900
From: Nobumi Iyanaga <>
Subject: [pmjs] Re: TITUS Unicode Basic font for the Mac: addendum

Hello again,

In my previous posting, I wrote:

I mentioned in my last posting some other free Unicode
fonts that you can get in the net, but which are EXE files. Another person
wrote me about this:

> MACusers get "Bitstream Cyberbit" Unicode font in ZIP version at:
> I got "Arial" Unicode font (not troublesome exe-file) using:


[As to "Arial Unicode" at the site of toyogakuen, Netscape attempts to
downloads it as a TEXT file -- of 23 MB !!; I don't know if it can be
really downloaded...]

Now, I learned that if you use OmniWeb's downloader, there is no problem to download this file.

Best regards,

Nobumi Iyanaga

P.S. I will cross-post this message to some other mailing lists

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